In this in-depth conversation, senior national security expert and author of “The Great Heist — China’s Epic Campaign To Steal America’s Secrets,” David R. Shedd joins Josh Rogin, of the Washington Post, to discuss the real scope and scale of Chinese Communist Party–driven espionage—and why the challenge is far more extensive than most Americans realize. Drawing from his new book and decades of experience in the intelligence community, the discussion traces how the CCP has systematically integrated espionage, industrial policy, and economic strategy into a single, whole-of-society effort. The conversation explores how open democratic systems—built on collaboration, free markets, and global engagement—have been exploited through technology transfer, investment flows, human intelligence networks, and cyber operations.